In which I am musing on bad people
A situation has cropped up recently that has gotten me to wondering, what makes a bad person? I think we all agree that anybody who abuses kids or kills folks is probably bad. (I say probably because you can always split ethical hairs here, and if you killed someone to prevent them from bombing a room full of people, you'd probably be considered a hero.) But I digress. What I'm really wondering about is the rest of us. When do our daily foibles and failures carry us over the line from good people who are fallible to people who are just not good PERIOD?
The situation is that a woman I know is friends with a mistress. She insists the mistress is a lovely, wonderful person who just happens to be involved in this situation. I pointed out that someone who willingly collaborates in endangering a marriage might have to stretch to reach the label of "wonderful". But it got me thinking, is this a bad woman? This is an ongoing relationship, so we can't give her the benefit of the doubt that she might not know his situation. We can't excuse her on any possible grounds of ignorance or gullibility or youth. She apparently has a history of making bad choices with men, and this is just the latest.
So is she a good person with a blind spot? A victim who is acting out to serve her own psychological issues? Or is she a bad person because she does bad things? At what point do we say, this is no longer a nice person or a good person because what she does is simply too big to be overlooked? How far can we excuse people we care about when they are deliberately choosing to engage in behavior that is destructive, willful, and--to most people--amoral? And what do we do when we are no longer willing to condone?
I have no answers here. I am merely wondering how this all fits together and when we cross the line from good folks who are misguided into being bad folks. I deal with these questions quite a lot in my novels because I am fascinated with the grey area in between. I like to create murderers who are justified--at least in their own minds--and upright citizens who leave mayhem in their wake. And then question of accountability is an endlessly fascinating one, I think. You?
On a side note, the girlchild is back at school this week--many thanks for the good thoughts!
The situation is that a woman I know is friends with a mistress. She insists the mistress is a lovely, wonderful person who just happens to be involved in this situation. I pointed out that someone who willingly collaborates in endangering a marriage might have to stretch to reach the label of "wonderful". But it got me thinking, is this a bad woman? This is an ongoing relationship, so we can't give her the benefit of the doubt that she might not know his situation. We can't excuse her on any possible grounds of ignorance or gullibility or youth. She apparently has a history of making bad choices with men, and this is just the latest.
So is she a good person with a blind spot? A victim who is acting out to serve her own psychological issues? Or is she a bad person because she does bad things? At what point do we say, this is no longer a nice person or a good person because what she does is simply too big to be overlooked? How far can we excuse people we care about when they are deliberately choosing to engage in behavior that is destructive, willful, and--to most people--amoral? And what do we do when we are no longer willing to condone?
I have no answers here. I am merely wondering how this all fits together and when we cross the line from good folks who are misguided into being bad folks. I deal with these questions quite a lot in my novels because I am fascinated with the grey area in between. I like to create murderers who are justified--at least in their own minds--and upright citizens who leave mayhem in their wake. And then question of accountability is an endlessly fascinating one, I think. You?
On a side note, the girlchild is back at school this week--many thanks for the good thoughts!
Labels: general musing
posted by deanna at
6:50 AM
10 Comments:
When I was VERY (19 years old) young I made that mistake too. I wasn't a bad person, I just made some awful choices! I was young and so confused about life and desperately wanted someone to love but went about it completely wrong. I look back at those times and I am so mortified and my behavior and decision making process. I wish that I could go back and apologize to the woman I hurt and tell her how deeply sorry I am about what I did. This was so long ago and I have finally forgiven myself. Looking back now I realize that I learned so much from that awful experience and I feel that I am a better person for it. I do hope that she and her husband survived this painful time and that she has forgiven him. But my point is that I wasn't a bad person then or now. Just young, lonely and not very bright. No excuse I know but we all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them and come out of it with much more wisdom.
N
I agree, in this instance a lot of it would have to do with motivation. Did she embark on the affair in order to destroy a marriage? Does she not care that her actions are possibly hurting an untold number of people (and I say possibly because who knows what the state of the marriage is)? If so, her actions are bad (evil even!). Most likely, not.
We have legal delineations between murder and manslaughter after all, which are at least primarily based on motivation. In the case of murder, you deliberately set out to kill someone, hence, bad person, no questions asked. In the case of manslaughter, it's usually a series of bad and stupid decisions that lead to the death of a person. Same thing here, mistress is not deliberately setting out to ruin the marriage, it's just a series of bad and stupid decisions that are causing it.
Actually, I blame the man in these cases anyway. He's the one who took the oath to be faithful. :)
Emily makes a crucial point. The man in the situation is violating his vows.
But what if his wife is abusive, alcoholic, insane...and he's staying to take care of his kids? Perhaps this mistress is his only comfort in the world?
More gray zones.
I think we can love the sinner and hate the sin. Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter showed us the fallacy and futility of blaming the woman and shunning her--her lover was the "virtuous" man of God, himself.
"Judgement is mine, saith the Lord." I'm not trying to preach, just pointing out that we don't have to determine the right and wrong of someone else's situation. If my friend the mistress asked for advice, I'd urge her to separate from the situation for her own sake. She deserves a man who is faithful to her, alone.
Otherwise, I'd enjoy her company and simply ignore the situation as I would a blemish on her cheek.
Cheryl
I agree that it depends on the specific situation . . . though I think really for most women who are a mistress it is because they have a really low opinion of themselves. They get into a position where they can have all the fantasies of a relationship without having to worry about where it is going, they aren't going to get married. The man also plays a huge role in this situation, he can manipulate a vunerable woman into thinking many untruths. Such as his wife is a terrible person. Then why wouldn't he divorce her. . . he has a reason for that too, the kids. . . nope that doesn't work either. I come from a divorced family and TRUST me my sister and I were better off without the fighting and manipulating of us for their own purposes. (Children should know that their parents love them, even if they don't love eachother anymore. Divorcing is a good way to let kids know that) One can hope that this woman realizes what she is doing and moves on.
Where she becomes a bad person is if she likes the situation, if it is exciting for her and if she is using the man, perhaps in hopes of breaking the marriage up, just to move on the another. sgerken
I agree with most of what is being said, and I think there's another element too and that's mental health. I'm not suggesting that this woman is insane, but maybe she has some underlying problems due to bad relationships in the past or depression, etc. In that case seeing counseling would be the best option, but you can't force someone into that sort of thing. Ultimately they have to realize they have a problem and go themselves. Perhaps it will take something awful like ruining a marriage to make her realize this. I guess the bottom line here is that we shouldn't judge when we don't have all of the information.
Speaking as the child of a divorce that ended because of a 2-year affair my father had with a woman at work, I will always see his mistress as a bad person. My father eventually married and divorced her, and my opinion of her has not changed. She did not care what her actions were doing to me, my sisters, my mother, or my family. She was selfish and cruel.
Yes, my father was culpable; he should have had the guts to leave before starting up with her. But she could have walked away, and she didn't. In fact, she drove by our house dozens of times and honked.
Whatever she is to other people, to me, she is a bad person. And I think that's the rub--it all depends on your perspective. To her children, she's their mother, and I'm sure they wanted her to be happy. Recently, my own mother started to toe a line with a married man. And believe me, my sisters and I had many discussions about how we could be complicit in that situation, knowing that to the man's children, if it went much farther, my mom would be the mistress--the bad person. It's a matter of perspective.
I would say, never do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself.
I appreciate y'all sharing your stories and perspectives.
Here's the deal, people are multi-faceted. The guy blasting his horn at me for not pulling out fast enough may also serve at the homeless shelter. Think of Rhett Butler's friend who so incensed Scarlet. I can be very mean in one aspect, and the kindest person you've ever met in another. Not many of us can be Melony.
The bottom line is that betrayal is wrong and unacceptable. We aren't animals - stupid at times, certainly - but not without the ability to control our actions. Hitler was probably a misunderstood youth as well, but come on... Rationalizing away solid foundations of humanity is being confused with forgiveness and openmindedness. There is a difference between charm, or charisma, and real goodness. A person fun to laugh with can also be the person with 10 bodies hidden in their basement.
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